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Kami and Piccolo
Topic Started: Jul 31 2014, 12:56 PM (935 Views)
+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

During the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, how much stronger would you guys say Piccolo is?
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

I personally think Shen/Kami was around Tenshinhan at this point in time, maybe a little weaker.

The gap would've been similar to unweighted Goku vs Tenshinhan. Goku had no problem keeping ahead of Tenshinhan after he took his weights off, even though he had some trouble before he did so.
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Tenshinhan thinks Shen's level surpasses anything conceivable and makes it pretty clear that they're all much weaker than Shen and Piccolo (it's Yamcha who says that they can't win or something, but Tens***hands is on the same page and goes on to redundantly confirm that yes, these people are crazy).

Kami couldn't see Piccolo's movements against Goku, and moreover, he was asking Tenshinhan (I think, may have been someone else) to kill him in order to stop Piccolo even when Piccolo had been ridiculously weakened, iirc, so the gap had to have been pretty large.
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Well kami couldn't even see piccolo and goku fighting so there's a gap big enough for piccolo to stomp him probably. Kami was pretty amazed by their fight iirc
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Speed does not equate to power though. Burta proves this. He's roughly equal to Jheese, but is much faster. Kami is old and lacks skill, for that reason, I don't feel he's too far removed as far as battle power goes.
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Kyouks
Jul 31 2014, 04:00 PM
Tenshinhan thinks Shen's level surpasses anything conceivable and makes it pretty clear that they're all much weaker than Shen and Piccolo (it's Yamcha who says that they can't win or something, but Tens***hands is on the same page and goes on to redundantly confirm that yes, these people are crazy).

Kami couldn't see Piccolo's movements against Goku, and moreover, he was asking Tenshinhan (I think, may have been someone else) to kill him in order to stop Piccolo even when Piccolo had been ridiculously weakened, iirc, so the gap had to have been pretty large.
Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense considering that Goku and Piccolo are roughly the same power, and Tenshinhan fought Goku. Goku completely outclassed him when he took the weights off, but before that, they were roughly even.

Based on PL percentage increase, Goku didn't even increase 33% during the Raditz Arrival when he took his weights off. If Goku was 25% over Tenshinhan during the 23rd, I think he's lucky.
And Kami is clearly below both Goku and Piccolo.

However, as we learn later, even a 20% gap can result in a curbstomp.
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Majunior: 360
- Suppressed Match Level: 265
-- Extra Suppressed: 235
--- FP Shogekiha: 500

Kami: 335
- As Shen (FP): 290
-- Fooling Around: 215

That's my numbers. Possibly Kami a bit lower, but he blocked Piccolo's punch and Goku and Piccolo hadn't exerted themselves a lot by then.
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Ketchup, it only doesn't make sense if you think we saw Goku at his best against Tenshinhan. Goku's level against Tenshinhan even after taking off his weights had to have been below his best, though, since Tenshinhan suspects after the match that Goku hadn't put out his true ability, and Kami still thought that he was stronger than Goku (we don't actually see Shen watching Goku vs Tenshinhan, but it wouldn't make much sense to me if he hadn't done so in order to try and get an idea of where Goku stood). In fact, the latter fact is also an implication that Shen > Tenshinhan.

As for the un-weighted increase in the Saiyan saga, that's a good point, but I believe Goku notes that both he and Piccolo had been training hard. It's plausible to me that because he was stronger here, the weights didn't hinder him as much.

And, as for the Tenshinhan/Kami comparison specifically, after Tenshinhan and co. trained on the lookout, Kami says something like "You've all now surpassed me," so there's a third implication that anyone not named Piccolo and Goku were below Kami's level prior to the Vegeta/Nappa battle.
Edited by Kyouks, Jul 31 2014, 05:40 PM.
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Kyouks
Jul 31 2014, 05:39 PM
Ketchup, it only doesn't make sense if you think we saw Goku at his best against Tenshinhan. Goku's level against Tenshinhan even after taking off his weights had to have been below his best, though, since Tenshinhan suspects after the match that Goku hadn't put out his true ability, and Kami still thought that he was stronger than Goku (we don't actually see Shen watching Goku vs Tenshinhan, but it wouldn't make much sense to me if he hadn't done so in order to try and get an idea of where Goku stood). In fact, the latter fact is also an implication that Shen > Tenshinhan.

As for the un-weighted increase in the Saiyan saga, that's a good point, but I believe Goku notes that both he and Piccolo had been training hard. It's plausible to me that because he was stronger here, the weights didn't hinder him as much.

And, as for the Tenshinhan/Kami comparison specifically, after Tenshinhan and co. trained on the lookout, Kami says something like "You've all now surpassed me," so there's a third implication that anyone not named Piccolo and Goku were below Kami's level prior to the Vegeta/Nappa battle.
Even if Goku wasn't exerting himself doesn't mean that he wasn't at full strength.
There's no evidence that Goku knew anything about ki suppression at this point in time. He doesn't seem to learn this until he trains with Kaiosama.

Goku wasn't indicated to train that hard during the five year gap. Piccolo mocks him for this, and Roshi states that he's surprised that Goku kept up his power during this time, despite "settling down".

Even if he trained enough to stay in shape doesn't mean that he'd make considerable gains, or even if he'd gain at all.

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Ki suppression, possibly not. Holding back, he definitely knew about that. He had been doing that for years, ever since the first Budokai he partook in.

In all honesty, I don't think ki suppression and holding back are too different. Ki suppression is just an "advanced" way of holding back, imo. Kind of a successor to 'holding back'.
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Emmeth
Jul 31 2014, 05:49 PM
Ki suppression, possibly not. Holding back, he definitely knew about that. He had been doing that for years, ever since the first Budokai he partook in.

In all honesty, I don't think ki suppression and holding back are too different. Ki suppression is just an "advanced" way of holding back, imo. Kind of a successor to 'holding back'.
Indeed, but they aren't the same thing. People who know nothing about ki can actually "hold back".

This doesn't mean that their ki is held back.
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If Goku was at full strength, then Kami must not have sensed him for some reason (which is crazy talk), because he still thinks that he's stronger. But whatever Kami did to gauge Goku's strength against Tenshinhan, it didn't allow him to see all of it (all of it meaning Goku's full strength, not all of Goku's strength against Tenshinhan).

You know if this translation is accurate? I'd take Goku's word over Roshi's, given that Roshi shouldn't have any idea what Goku's been up to (all he has to go off of is that Goku now has a kid). Plus, I would think that Piccolo would surpass by Goku by now if Goku had only maintained/barely increased his power. Either way I am kinda forced to go with this route, anyway, because I feel that there's way too much indicating that Shen's power against Piccolo is beyond anything we'd seen prior, and Goku's best is beyond even that.
Edited by Kyouks, Jul 31 2014, 06:05 PM.
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Kyouks
Jul 31 2014, 06:00 PM
You know if this translation is accurate? I'd take Goku's word over Roshi's, given that Roshi shouldn't have any idea what Goku's been up to (all he has to go off of is that Goku now has a kid). Plus, I would think that Piccolo would surpass by Goku by now if Goku had only maintained/barely increased his power. Either way I am kinda forced to go with this route, anyway, because I feel that there's way too much indicating that Shen's power against Piccolo is beyond anything we'd seen prior, and Goku's best is beyond even that.
It's not accurate. He just makes puffing noises in those panels.
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That's odd, the Kanzenban looks like it has a bit more than that.

Edit: Actually that's the original, not Kanzenban....I forget, but whatever.
Edited by Kyouks, Jul 31 2014, 06:25 PM.
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Kyouks
Jul 31 2014, 06:16 PM
That's odd, the Kanzenban looks like it has a bit more than that.
Oh god dammit. I looked at the wrong panels :|

Ignore me for the rest of the week, Kyo. I am unreliable.
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